How I Met Your Monster

Interpreting the Horrors Within "The Innocents" - Occupational Hazards Pt 3

Episode Summary

We're punching our timecard one final time in our "Occupational Hazards" Triple Feature with Jack Clayton's 1961 thriller The Innocents.

Episode Notes

We take a journey into Jack Clayton’s 1961 film The Innocents, an adaptation of Henry James’ chilling novel The Turn of the Screw, and argue whether the film is a classic ghost story or a deep dive into Miss Giddens’ psyche. We’ll discuss Truman Capote’s contribution, the controversies surrounding the release, and the modern remakes of the story from The Turning to Mike Flanagan’s The Haunting of Bly Manor. Also, is Mary Poppins a witch? We chat about the possibility of Disney promoting witchcraft in the 1960s. 

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Episode Transcription

0:00:03 - Zach

You're listening to how I Met your Monster, a podcast that explores the introductions to your favorite movie monsters. My name's Zach. I'm Danny and I'm Casey, and together we dive into the world of horror to find out how filmmakers have introduced us to our favorite monsters time and time again. This is how I Met your Monster.  


0:00:41 - Zach

Welcome to how I Met your Monster, the show where we discuss the introductions to your favorite movie monsters. If you're not already subscribed to the show, find us on podcast platforms, just that easy.


0:01:18 - Danny

If you find a platform in the wild, just assume it's for podcasts and get on it Stand on that.


0:01:24 - Zach

I love standing on platforms. This is legit If you see you ever just see you're walking across a curb when you're a kid and you want to walk on the curb and not the street If there's a platform that you can stand on. If it's like this is totally serious. If there's any kind of raised platform, I have to get on it, not so much where it's like I need to climb up on this thing, but if it's just a good range between eight to 12 inches.


0:02:01 - Danny

It's like a metaphor, zach. You just want to keep climbing, you want to keep moving, you want to get onto that platform.


0:02:09 - Zach

I get it. So you get it, you get it.


0:02:11 - Danny

It's a specific thing, it's hyper specific.


0:02:17 - Zach

Casey, what are your thoughts on platforms in the wild?


0:02:20 - Casey

I'm just here.


0:02:22 - Zach

You don't have an opinion on platforms one way or the other.


0:02:25 - Casey



0:02:26 - Zach

Come on, If you have platform shoes I think they're great.


0:02:30 - Danny

They remind me of the Spice Girls back in the 90s.


0:02:34 - Zach

I see a little light. What does that kiss?


0:02:37 - Casey

Well, you're two very different people, that's true. I guess not really Kiss kind of. I mean, they're really not that far, Just the style of the music.


0:02:48 - Danny

Well, also it's the same members. Kiss just eventually became Spice Girls Right, and now they perform as both of them, kind of interchangeably.


0:02:57 - Casey



0:03:00 - Zach

Okay. So now that we've talked about platforms, we got that out of the way. If you guys want to support the show and stay up to date on your horror information, there is no better way than to subscribe to Fangoria Magazine, because it's awesome. It's been around forever and now if you go to their website and build your cart with subscriptions t-shirts, hats, bold issues, anything you can get 20% off by entering promo code HowIMetYourMonster at checkout and you help support us, because we need support.


0:03:39 - Danny

Yeah, also, if you need some more incentive to subscribe to Fangoria, zach, isn't it true that Fangoria was brought over to the States on the last voyage of the Demeter, that's a little known fact. They discovered blood corpses and just a single copy of Fangoria.


0:03:59 - Zach

Dracula was just reading. Everyone was dead and Dracula was just sitting in the corner.


0:04:04 - Danny

He almost got away with it, but he was like, oh, if I could just get to the last articles, really good. And then they caught him.


0:04:13 - Zach

Yeah, so that is a little known fact that that is how Fangoria got brought to the States, so you can tell that to your friends.


0:04:21 - Danny

Yeah, dracula was like dang I can relate to this and then there was an article about him. He's like wait a minute.


0:04:29 - Zach

He's like this is too gory, they're already making a movie about this. Visit shopfangoriacom. Slash HowIMetYourMonster, load up that cart and enter promo code HowIMetYourMonster at checkout for 20% off. And now that we got that business out of the way, it is time to begin our final shift in our occupational hazard triple feature. Sure is, and what better job to take on than being the governess of two creepy creepy children in a big old castle in London?


0:05:10 - Danny

England. Are we talking about Mary Poppins?


0:05:14 - Zach

I have never seen Mary Poppins, so we may very well be talking about that.


0:05:18 - Casey

Mary Poppins was a nanny, not a governess.


0:05:21 - Zach

What's the difference.


0:05:21 - Danny

I thought Mary Poppins was a governess. I don't know what's the difference. I just assumed that a governess was a nanny for rich people.


0:05:29 - Casey

Yeah, governess is, though I don't know, I don't. I feel like a nanny is more like babysitting. A governess actually teaches them.


0:05:37 - Danny



0:05:37 - Casey

Yeah, she teaches them reading, writing and arithmetic.


0:05:40 - Danny

A spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down.


0:05:41 - Casey

I've never seen Mary.


0:05:42 - Danny

Poppins either. Oh, good Lord, all right. Our next theme governesses Disney governesses. What's the? Is that the plural for governesses? Governess I.


0:05:55 - Zach

Governess, I Governess, I Givernesses. So she's a witch, right, mary Poppins?


0:06:03 - Casey

Yeah, that's a great question.


0:06:05 - Danny

No, yeah, for sure I actually have no idea what she would technically be labeled as, but yeah, I guess she is a witch.


0:06:11 - Casey

Have you ever seen Bedknobbs and broomsticks? That's about a witch. That's a Disney movie about a witch. Oh, son of a bitch. I mean there are witches in many Disney movies?


0:06:19 - Danny

Was Disney trying to promote witchcraft back in the 60s?


0:06:23 - Casey

There were plenty, I mean think about all the well. I guess most of them are villains, though, besides Mary Poppins and the one from Bedknobbs and broomsticks.


0:06:32 - Danny

So they're basically telling people, like, don't be a witch, and they're winking yeah. And like unless you can hide it. Yeah, and maybe that was the whole like message of the spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down To find peace, or for For their like secret love of witchcraft and how they're trying to like kind of get that. It was propaganda basically for assimilating witchcraft into the modern world.


0:06:54 - Casey

Well, Disney was a Nazi, so you know.


0:06:57 - Danny

Was he really?


0:06:58 - Casey



0:06:59 - Zach

No, really.


0:07:01 - Casey

Are you guys serious? You guys don't know about this.


0:07:05 - Zach



0:07:06 - Casey

I didn't, yeah. So yeah, I mean, you could probably do some of your own research. I think that it goes both. You know there's stuff about both ways. But yeah, a lot of people say it was like an anti-Semite, so it might really be a racist and stuff, jesus.


0:07:23 - Zach

So Mary Poppins, so Mary Poppins, yeah, so speaking of Mary, Poppins. It is a great segue to this movie, though, to be fair, so, danny, we are starting our last shift, right, we're starting our governance shift. We're all becoming governesses, all becoming governance. Follow me, jojo, why, why, why are we doing this, danny? What movie are we watching?


0:07:48 - Danny

The Innocence Based on the novel by Henry James, not called the Innocence, it's called the Turn of the Screw.


0:07:56 - Zach

Not to be confused with the taming of the shrew.


0:07:59 - Casey

That's what I was gonna say.


0:08:02 - Danny

Or 10 Things I Hate About you and not to be confused with Stephen King's, the Skeleton Crew. Is that Stephen King? I don't know. And not to be confused with that, I'm saying those. Hey, what do you do?


0:08:15 - Zach

And the curious case of Winnie the Pooh. Wait, what is?


0:08:18 - Danny

the Adventures of Winnie the Pooh.


0:08:21 - Zach

The Adventures of Winnie the Pooh. It's a bunch of them.


0:08:24 - Danny

Not to be confused with Scooby Doo. Scooby Doo why?


0:08:29 - Casey

can't I think of anything that rhymes. I have a pumpkin head poster in front of me. That's all I can think about.


0:08:35 - Zach

Not to be confused with Pumpkin Hadoo.


0:08:38 - Casey

Pumpkin Hadoo.


0:08:41 - Zach

Pumpkin Head 2. Pumpkin no, seriously, though the Innocence, not to be confused with the Turning from 2022. I don't know when it came up With Finn Wolfhard, which is also an adaptation of the Turn of the Screw With a governess and all that. So, Danny, this was your choice for our triple feature on Occupational Hazards. Tell us why you chose the Innocence.


0:09:13 - Danny

All right, get ready. Okay, it's based on the novel by Henry James, the Turn of the Screw, which is as ambiguous as the movie, so we're going to tackle that a little bit later. But very ambiguous novel. Is this about ghosts? Is this about kind of losing your mind? We don't know. The director, Jack Clayton, took a lot of inspiration from a play based on the book written by William Archibald titled the Innocence, which is where he got the title.


0:09:38 - Zach

It's made a change to it.


0:09:39 - Danny

In the play the ambiguity is basically gone. This is a ghost story, so that's why I think they really play with that a lot. In the movie, clayton hired Archibald, the guy who wrote the play, to adapt the story into a movie. Hired another screenwriter, john Mortimer, and then finally Truman Capote, who I'm sure everyone is familiar with. This was around the same time that he was working on In Cold Blood, so he had started In Cold Blood and then was like I'm going to adapt this movie and he basically rounded it out and made it the movie that we know it as today. Capote was responsible for kind of highlighting the Freudian elements, like that. The story was maybe a sexual fantasy that Miss Giddens is projecting onto the children, which we'll obviously get to.


0:10:25 - Zach

Interesting. There was a lot of weird sexy stuff.


0:10:32 - Danny

This is a very creepy movie for very different reasons, which I think is why, despite coming out in, I think, 1961, we're still talking about it today Now, despite Capote kind of putting all of that into the script. He personally believed that the ghosts were real, so I thought that was kind of interesting. The Innocence was a pretty controversial movie at the time when it was released. The British Board of Film Sensors gave it an X rating, though they later changed it. It's now just labeled as unrated and, as you had mentioned, the Innocence has been adapted quite a few times, like quite a few times as recently as 2020, when there were actually two adaptations Film called the Turning, with Finn Wolfhard from Stranger Things, and Mike Flanagan's series the Haunting of Bly Manor. Fun fact, he didn't just adapt the Turning of the Screw, but also other stories written by Henry James. You can actually see the titles of those stories in the episode titles, which I thought was a fun little take on that, yeah, okay, yeah, I didn't see the Bly Manor.


0:11:36 - Zach

I watched Haunting of Hill House, but I didn't watch Bly Manor.


0:11:39 - Danny

I think you might appreciate it, especially after seeing this, because this is your first time seeing the Innocence.


0:11:46 - Zach

Yes, I am an innocent virgin.


0:11:49 - Danny

Well then, I think you'll appreciate it because even though it adapts the novel, it also kind of adapts the movie. So like a lot of the music and some of those things are kind of like brought into the show Gotcha Gotcha, though I'm not sure. I don't think that the song. I could be totally wrong that if the song that Flora sings all the time and from the music box is in the book. I read the book a few years ago but it's very complicated, Danny.


0:12:23 - Zach

how can a song be in a book?


0:12:27 - Danny

It's magic, I'm telling you witchcraft.


0:12:30 - Zach

Oh, Mary.


0:12:30 - Danny

Poppins wrote, got witnesses.


0:12:32 - Zach

I see it was written by Henry James, but Mary Poppins was also like hold on, let me take a stab at this 100%.


0:12:41 - Danny

So, yeah, that's the innocence, and let's just hop off this little carriage. We just got ridden up to Bly Manor and we're all wearing our finest dresses and we're ready to.


0:12:55 - Casey

God, those dresses I know.


0:12:57 - Zach

So wait, in this movie was the house the Bly.


0:13:00 - Danny

Manor. Yeah, so the name of the house at their eye is Bly so in the show. That's why he just kind of like took it from to kind of haunting a pill house obviously was the original title and then to kind of match it for the quote unquote sequel in their little anthology they were just like let's take that.


0:13:20 - Casey

I'm definitely going to watch that now Okay.


0:13:23 - Danny

I really enjoyed it. It's a very different take. I don't want to. You know I'm not going to say anything. Okay, yeah, but I think you'll. I'm so excited you guys are going to watch it.


0:13:34 - Zach



0:13:35 - Danny

I didn't say. I was going to watch it, the listeners. This is why you you come to how I met your monster. We help you organize your, your viewing life, your TV movie viewing experience, just in general terms. So you're welcome.


0:13:52 - Zach

Oh, so, speaking of songs and creepy kids singing creepy things, our trusted trivia source, imdb, said that there's an audio clip of this somebody singing from this movie in the haunted, cursed video that they play in the ring. Oh really, yeah, like, like it said, like 25 seconds into that little cursed VHS tape, you can hear like a clip from this movie.


0:14:26 - Danny

Oh, that's interesting.


0:14:27 - Zach

So I kind of want to go back and see.


0:14:29 - Casey

Just Google that yeah. Google the ring videotape or like YouTube. You Google it. Oh fine, I will Right now.


0:14:36 - Danny

I'm going to watch the tape, don't watch the tape. How many warnings do you need so do not watch the tape. It will kill you in seven days.


0:14:45 - Casey

So first time I watched that movie I was at Cree's house and her brother knew that we were watching the movie and he left to go hang out with his friends and he called her house in the middle of us watching that movie and he did that to us and it freaked all of us out.


0:14:58 - Zach

Good for him.


0:15:03 - Casey

It was like, if I remember correctly, it was like perfectly timed to, to where it was like right after they showed it to you the first time. Oh my gosh, it was fucking.


0:15:13 - Zach

Yeah, so our monsters in the innocence, I guess, are the two ghosts right.


0:15:20 - Danny

Well, that's the thing I think it's really hard to determine. I guess it just depends on your. Okay, can I? Maybe I may be jumping the gun, but can I ask you guys, where do you stand on this movie? Do you see it as, like this is a straight upon at house, the kids are being possessed by these ghosts, or did you see it as Miss Giddens is just kind of like out of her element and it's too overwhelming? She spent her whole life kind of living, you know, with her little strict preacher dad and this is too much and she's kind of losing her mind.


0:15:55 - Casey

I thought it was just the ghosts. I didn't see any of the her.


0:15:59 - Zach

I definitely took it as a ghost story. I was like, oh there, the ghosts are there. That's, yeah, these kids are being influenced. I don't see, I don't even know if possessed she says possessed, she's like the kids are possessed. I wouldn't say that. I'd say they're being influenced by these ghosts. That's a cool time, okay, because, yeah, the kids were just too creepy and independent to not be having something to do with ghosts, like if it was just her.


0:16:32 - Danny

But couldn't you argue that the kids, because I come out? No, you know, you can't.


0:16:37 - Zach

Danny, you can't argue that, sorry, right, what was I thinking?


0:16:45 - Danny

No, because, like, I watched the movie wanting it to be a ghost story and just like, because that just what the movie I want, but I can't help but be like, oh they're. But they're giving you so much to like fuck with your head and make you think otherwise. Because even with the kids being so strange and you could chalk that up to like they don't have good role models and the role models they did have were very like, just dark and twisted, and they did. Maybe there are no ghosts, but those people still kind of use the children, you know, for their own benefit. So that could make them, you know, because the kids act like adults, you know, like they're just kind of compensating for things like the adult presence that they missed out on.


0:17:31 - Zach

Well, what about this Now? This is now. This is something you can argue, Danny. Okay.


0:17:37 - Danny

Well, I don't know if I'm going to want to, but we'll see.


0:17:39 - Zach

We'll see. So, going back to your thought about her, maybe just kind of like losing her mind and doing whatever. There are no ghosts. The kids aren't kids. What if they're just the people? Like, do you know? Well, it doesn't really make sense, but it makes a little bit of sense, do you mean?


0:17:59 - Danny

like they. So this is like a Benjamin Button thing, where, in the time between their supposed deaths and her work, and they've aged backwards.


0:18:10 - Zach

Like what if? What if that housekeeper, lady Miss, uh, joe, joe, Mrs Gross. Gross, gross.


0:18:24 - Danny



0:18:24 - Zach

Gross Grossy anymore. What if she okay, hang on. What if she is a ghost? Okay, I don't know. Basically, what I'm trying to say is the kids and not some Benjamin Button stuff. The kids aren't kids. She sees them as kids, but they are. They are Peter Quint and Miss Jessel. Okay, and that's why, like the, the, the all the kissing between the children and the adults is that's just so fucking weird. But like she was actually just kissing Peter Quint.


0:19:05 - Casey

Well, I think that that leans more towards the possession kind of thing.


0:19:09 - Zach



0:19:10 - Danny

I don't know there's so much to pick apart with this movie is the idea of them being possessed kind of ties into the whole theme of the story and the you know the story is called the innocence. So it's like the innocence, the idea of being an innocent and being corrupted, and then how do you corrupt someone innocent on a supernatural level. It is like the idea of possession. It's like I'm going to literally use you for my own benefit.


0:19:38 - Zach

Um, but here's the.


0:19:40 - Danny

Yeah, there's so many scenes in this movie that I literally wrote down like every piece of dialogue that I could, where it's sort of like oh Danny just wrote the script out. So yeah, so like in this scene interior garden day.


0:19:55 - Zach

So. But why are the? Why are Peter Quint and Miss Jessel haunting the house?


0:20:02 - Danny

Because they want to. I don't know. I think there's a lot of ways to read it. There was one line I think they just want it's very. It's creepier the more you pull it apart, because on one hand you could argue that they want it to be together. They want it. They were both from um lives where maybe money wasn't as accessible to them as it was for the people they worked for. So they were almost like benefiting, like, oh, we can live this life of luxury, you know, as these children and no one would ever suspect children. But then it's creepy because they're supposed to be in love. But the movie also doesn't shy away from that element, like it is acknowledging that a lot of the stuff happening here is creepy which.


I think, is why the movie is so controversial, because the more you try to like look at it, it's like oh, this is like ski V on multiple levels.


0:20:57 - Zach



0:20:58 - Danny

I looked at it as like a class thing where, like, we could just live our lives and it's sort of well. I don't want to spoil.


0:21:05 - Zach

Danny, you can spoil it.


0:21:06 - Casey

Yeah, what do you?


0:21:07 - Danny

Well, other no other movies Like we talk about movies on here.


0:21:12 - Casey

Danny, people know.


0:21:14 - Danny

Do you guys know what movie I'm talking about? No, I'll describe it where characters transport their souls into another person to benefit from their lives. If that doesn't ring a bell, then I'm not going to say.


0:21:31 - Casey

Are you talking about get out?


0:21:33 - Danny

Yes, actually, that movie also reminds me of this other movie too. So we'll say get out. It's kind of like get out in that. I want to know what this other movie is.


0:21:41 - Casey

Yeah, just say it.


0:21:42 - Danny

I don't want to spoil it, I'm obviously never going to watch it in the movie. No, you should Okay Listeners, if you are.


0:21:49 - Zach

If you are worried about spoilers from any movie, ever skip forward the next 10 seconds, like well. I think Apple does 15 seconds.


0:21:59 - Danny

It's going to take you about 20 seconds to say the title. Shut up.


0:22:02 - Zach

Okay, so okay, skip now. Okay, danny.


0:22:06 - Danny

What is this? The skeleton key?


0:22:08 - Casey

Oh, it's been so long I knew you were going to say that no, because Zach hasn't seen it.


0:22:16 - Danny

You haven't seen it.


0:22:17 - Zach

I saw it when it came out, but I have no idea that that's what it was about, and now you've ruined it.


0:22:22 - Casey

Listeners, I wish I would have skipped with you. I wish I would have skipped with you.


0:22:25 - Zach

I should have skipped my own 15 seconds.


0:22:28 - Casey

Just wait another 15 years to watch it. You'll forget.


0:22:31 - Danny

This is why I'm traumatized emotionally. I'm set up for failure.


0:22:36 - Casey

It's really funny because thinking about that movie, like, literally, I don't have a single recollection. I've seen it but I don't have a single recollection of it. I don't have a single, even after you saying that.


0:22:47 - Zach

Yeah, Like no, I know there's like I can see the poster and I know there's like a house and that's about it.


0:22:53 - Danny

I remember liking the movie. We should watch it again.


0:22:56 - Casey

So it's like get out.


0:22:58 - Danny



0:23:00 - Casey

But we just assume that everyone is seen get out, because I just kind of just get out as well. But that's not exactly what get out is about.


0:23:11 - Danny

It's just kind of no, but this has that. If you look at this movie like that, there is a kind of a common thread. There's a similarity, if you and that's the thing about that's why I love this movie is there's so many ways to interpret it, which makes it so interesting. That's why I thought it'd be really interesting to talk about, but maybe it's too complicated.


0:23:33 - Casey

It must be too complicated for my tiny blur, because I didn't get anything.


0:23:38 - Danny

Yeah, but you wouldn't. You said you watched it in like three parts and I had to fell asleep during the end. Oh no, I fell asleep.


0:23:45 - Zach

So much of a I don't think Casey time. You're not too much of a classic black and white kind of movie watcher, are you?


0:23:56 - Casey

I mean not really black and white. I can't think of anything that I've really watched in black and white besides, like the original, like Dracula and Frankenstein which we need.


0:24:08 - Zach

We need to cover those.


0:24:09 - Danny

Do we not want to watch those anymore?


0:24:11 - Casey

Because I do no no, I don't have anything against them and I wouldn't go into this thinking like I don't want to watch the movie because it's black and white.


0:24:21 - Danny

I'm not like that.


0:24:22 - Casey

I just, I guess it is, it is pace differently.


0:24:25 - Danny

you know, there is like something to be said for our attention, not our attention spans. I don't mean that as like individuals, I just mean like, as like a culture, you know like things speed up. We change the way we view things is. This is very different and, yeah, it's like reading an old I mean literally the book that it's based on I had. It's so short and I had so much trouble getting through it because the language is just like oh, what are you talking about?


0:24:49 - Casey

Like yeah is this I've had a just a really hard time Paying attention in general. So if something doesn't, I can't tell you in the last few weeks how many movies I've watched 10 minutes of and then turned off, because if you're not, yeah, if it's not grabbing me by, then I'm not going to bother at that point because I will fall asleep.


0:25:09 - Zach

Well, I'll tell you guys, I am too tense, too tense, into the way of my fast and the furious watch.


0:25:17 - Casey

Oh good, you watched too fast, too fast, too fast.


0:25:20 - Danny

Was it too fast, too furious.


0:25:23 - Casey

I mean it was like really furious.


0:25:27 - Zach

I thought I had seen. Okay, so I have. Only, I had only seen the first one in the movie theater, and that's how. And I thought I had seen the second one. But it turns out I had not. Good, and I really was. I was like waiting for Vin Diesel to come out. I was like, hey, oh, vinnie, when are you?


0:25:43 - Casey

coming back. Is he not in it?


0:25:45 - Zach

No, and I don't think because I know the third one goes to Tokyo and it's like more diesel, it's kind of like. I think the third one, if I'm not mistaken, is kind of like a Halloween three situation where it's like it's its own kind of movie. Yeah, so I don't think Vinnie Vinnie comes back until part four.


0:26:03 - Casey

Vinnie D, like he's from the Jersey Shore.


0:26:07 - Danny

Do you think in an alternate universe? His name's Vin, premium or Vin?


0:26:13 - Casey

super Vin regular unleaded Did you like it without Vinnie D?


0:26:23 - Zach

No, I don't particularly like. I don't think I will like any of these movies, but I'm forcing myself to watch them.


0:26:30 - Casey

You could be watching something way better.


0:26:32 - Zach

You know I could be, but I found out that I think that in too fast, too furious they like that's when, like the culture, like the thing started people saying bruh and cuz, like what's up, cuz, it's like what's up, bruh. And like it's so infuriating when they talk like that, it's so forced. But and Paul Walker, like recipes, he like I enjoy a lot of his movies, but like he's always just like happy to be wherever he is.


0:27:05 - Danny

He's a golden retriever.


0:27:06 - Zach

He's like an undercover cop and he's doing those again, these life or death situations, but he's always like smiling. But anyways, we're here to talk about.


0:27:18 - Casey

Yeah, the fast and the furious.


0:27:22 - Zach

We'll have to do a spin off podcast on fast. But are you guys ready to head to Bly Manor and meet our ghost monsters?


0:27:32 - Casey

Yeah, so we'd been there.


0:27:34 - Danny

But we're still trying to knock it off on the outskirts where we've got like binoculars or what. Yeah, they had binoculars back then, right, yeah, yeah, or what we have like a little. What is the opera ones? All three of us and our best summer gowns hiding in the bushes on the outskirts of Bly Manor with our little opera binoculars and we're trying to suss out who's the? Who are the monsters? Is it the? Is it the sister in her lady standing? Is it Mrs Gross?


0:28:06 - Casey

So one of the thoughts that I did have during this movie was can you imagine dressing like that all the time?


0:28:12 - Zach

Oh yeah, in the summer.


0:28:14 - Casey

Lord, terrible, yeah. So yeah, there's my thought for the day.


0:28:20 - Zach

All right, let's head to Bly Manor. Clip ity clop, ity clop.


0:28:33 - Danny

We had two different takes it's like the clippity clop.


0:28:36 - Casey

Clippity clop I did. The sack is doing the cartoon version.


0:28:40 - Danny

Anyway, it's like in Friends when they're like your whip is like OK so I have a question.


0:29:10 - Zach

Tell me if I'm wrong in saying this. The way this movie starts, it's just like it opens up, there's like she's in a job interview. Basically, they just like lay out the whole movie. They're like this is what's going to happen. You're going to go to this place, you're not going to have, you're not going to be able to reach out to me, like I don't want to hear about it, just good luck, here you go. Then the movie starts. Movies don't do that anymore.


0:29:37 - Danny

No no, I'm wrong in that. You get it's while. You get like the inciting incident within the first like four minutes.


0:29:44 - Zach

Well, I yeah, I'm thinking like the shining, though did it Right yeah.


0:29:49 - Casey

But I think that, as I think that now viewers want more of a reason to care about somebody, why would I care about what happens to this woman? I don't know anything about her.


0:29:59 - Danny

Sure. Well, it's funny because in the book there is a setup. This is set up as like a true ghost story, someone's they're sitting around a fire and I think she's talking about either her sister or her cousin, who is Miss Giddens, but they're kind of giving you the setup beforehand, which is, I thought, was really interesting. So a lot of these things were deliberate, so they were. They had written in, or at least were considering writing in flashbacks, to kind of give some of this kind of background, and then they decided not to and you only get that one kind of brief line about where she comes from, how it was this kind of strict upbringing in a very religious family, but that's later. So, yeah, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what, why, why they're yeah.


0:30:49 - Zach

Well, no, it's like there's nothing. I guess there's nothing wrong with it, but I guess earlier we were talking about, you know, black and white movies and how like the culture has changed in this and like they just don't. It sounds so silly to be like they don't make them Like they're used to. Yeah, but I don't mean it like that, I just mean it like they don't.


0:31:07 - Casey

No, but you know, feature length movies now are usually 120 minutes instead of 92.


0:31:13 - Zach

Yeah, mm, hmm, so clearly it's just something that like, I'm not like arguing that it's better or worse, I'm just saying that like I noticed like oh OK, so the movie opens up. They just give us everything we need to know to set us on our way and then basically send us on our way to the castle.


0:31:29 - Danny

It's interesting what you said, though, about the shining, I didn't, I didn't put that together. I wonder yeah, because that kind of happens.


0:31:34 - Zach

So you know he's in his job interview and they're like you need to. You're going to be up here All winter, whatever, and then blah blah blah. And then here we go, anyway, and he gets possessed by the ghosts.


0:31:48 - Danny

Danny we're not doing it. We're not doing it, Casey. We're losing our mind. Like you can't get in touch.


0:31:54 - Casey

I've just accepted it.


0:31:56 - Danny

All right, really quickly, really quickly. So, conspiracy theory of the week the shining exists in the same universe as the innocence, and maybe the same supernatural supply. And that's it. Hit it Retroactive.


0:32:09 - Casey



0:32:11 - Zach

OK, so our main character, miss Giddens, is tasked with becoming a governess to two children. That, this dude, what's his name? Just like the actors Michael Redgrave, what is uncle, uncle, uncle, let's call him Uncle. We're in the we're in the bra Because I have a single calm uncle.


So uncle is just like, hey, I don't want to deal with these kids, you take them, do whatever you want. And some Miss Giddens gets to this estate and she wants to. She sees the estate and she's like, oh, I want to walk the rest of this bitch. So she starts walking and she hears someone calling whose name? Flora's name, flora. And then she's like, oh, someone was out there calling him and I was like I was. Then Miss Mrs Josie Grossi was like I didn't hear anybody calling anybody's name.


0:33:13 - Danny

There's nobody else, and that establishes right away that either Flora is lying or there's a ghost, or they just someone else's. Well, this probably not, as that's not really an argument. I was to say someone who is just like fucking with all of them, but yeah.


0:33:29 - Zach

I don't know if there's maybe. Peter Quint and Miss Jessal aren't really dead. They're just like living on the grounds and they're just Maybe they're trying to scare them out and be like.


0:33:40 - Danny

you know, these are simple minded people. You know the uncle's not there anyways, maybe we can just like live here and they would never know, kind of like a once it called situation.


0:33:50 - Zach

Yeah you know, spoiler 15 second skips what's it called Parasite.


0:33:58 - Casey

Oh, thanks. Thanks a lot, I'm just kidding. I've seen it several times, so good.


0:34:07 - Zach

It is. But anyways, yes, so maybe they, yeah, so maybe they live on the grounds.


0:34:12 - Casey

I thought that they were going to pull a spoiler alert For what the hours?


0:34:18 - Danny

Oh my God, so many spoilers.


0:34:21 - Zach

The others.


0:34:22 - Casey

The others. Oh, I was like, thank you.


0:34:27 - Zach

Both Nicole Kidman, I think she does have a prosthetic nose yes.


0:34:31 - Casey

Do you have you guys seen it?


0:34:33 - Zach

Yes, ok, I thought I don't remember too much about it, but I remember the ending. I know I saw it. I love the others.


0:34:38 - Casey

But yeah, that's what I thought was going on.


0:34:41 - Zach

OK, yeah, I definitely like. I bet you that this was some kind of inspiration on the others. Yeah, very similar.


0:34:48 - Casey

I at least thought the boy was because of he had come home from school for no reason.


0:34:56 - Danny

But for see, that's the thing. Flora even says at one point that she knew her brother was coming home sooner, which feels like it could be meant like that's what I thought.


0:35:07 - Casey

I thought because he's coming home sooner, because he did so.


0:35:12 - Danny

Yeah, so OK. So if this is, if you're looking at this movie, and it is a supernatural story, they are ghosts and let's just for this argument sake that the ghosts are possessing the children. I was trying to look at it from that perspective, because sometimes the kids seem like kids even the way they're talking, but then sometimes you can almost see them shift and like like miles specifically, we'll just like start talking in this very, you know, upper class, very mature sort of kind of like adult way of speaking. So I was really trying to flag it. And there's a scene that comes later where there's this huge gust of wind and Miles almost seems to switch on a dime and he says something when he's like, don't be frightened, it was only the wind, my dear.


0:36:01 - Zach

And he's like so it blows out the candle, yeah.


0:36:04 - Danny

Yeah, and I was like, oh shit, is that supposed to symbolize like, like a physical representation of him being kind of possessed? Where we kind of took over but then sometimes leaves, I don't know. Yeah, this movie fucks with your head Like well. Yeah, I'm like jumping around.


0:36:23 - Zach

But no, because you'll see, like at the end, when we get there, there is like a connection between Peter Quint and Miles, whether whatever the connection is, there is some kind of connection there. So maybe that is like he comes in and he like comes and goes as he pleases, yeah, yeah. And I remember like thinking, as soon as Flora came on, I was like that girl is dead, like yeah, that's a dead girl, she's walking around, she's talking, but she's a good. It's funny that you're like I'm calling it.


0:36:53 - Danny

You referenced the movie Parasite, because it's almost like the ghosts are parasites, like they just take over conveniently, like whatever works for them. You know, like we're going to possess them. We're going to do, whether it's to fuck with the people living in the house or to just kind of be alive, so to speak. There's even a point where Flora mentions that she likes the dark. There's these like passing phrases that they say, or it's like what.


I don't know, like little things like why does she like the dark? Because she's accustomed to the dark, because she's dead, and that's actually Miss Jessal talking, I don't know, and the fact that Ms Jessal drowned in the water.


0:37:30 - Zach

Is she Bane? Was she born into the darkness? Speaking of weird shit that Flora says oh, here's a lovely spider eating a butterfly.


0:37:41 - Danny

Yes, which is like the corruption of innocence, or it's like this beautiful thing and then this like insect, this thing that is like overpowering, and it just destroys it and she has no problem with it.


0:37:54 - Casey

I mean, it is just nature.


0:37:57 - Danny

It's not really that sinister, but the fact that they draw attention to it, yeah, and the fact that she is this child who, like, doesn't mind it, it's almost like. It's like if it was Ms Jessal, it's almost like justifying this idea, right? Because even before that, flora asks I think she asks Ms Jessal she asks where the Lord, like, takes people when they die, and she says, if she's bad, would he leave her here to walk around? And so it's like, is that punishment? And it's almost like Ms Jessal could be asking, or Flora knows that there's these ghosts, and she's like trying to understand it from, like, a child's perspective.


0:38:35 - Zach

Right, like, why are they hanging around here? Yeah, yeah, okay, here's a question. It's a big house, right?


0:38:43 - Casey

I'll know. I'll know the answer to this.


0:38:45 - Danny

Yeah, we got this, casey, take it. I got it.


0:38:49 - Zach

It's a big house. Yes, what the fuck was Ms Giddens thinking when she's like, okay, just a quick game of hide and seek before bed? I know what.


0:39:00 - Danny

And they even say that like we can use the whole house and she's like sure, what if the whole movie was just her trying to find them? She's like this is ridiculous. Three hour movie.


0:39:13 - Casey

I mean, she's never been in governance before, she's got no idea what she's doing.


0:39:18 - Danny

Yeah, she's just totally overwhelmed. She's like, oh, hide and seek like we would do in our one room shack of harm, how hard can it be? Yeah, you could just count and there they are.


0:39:30 - Zach

It's like she's like. She's like hunched over in a corner with her hands over her eyes counting the 10, and the only place to hide is like under her arms, where she's hunched over Because there's nowhere to hide for this one room. She's like one, two, excuse me, like little kids, like I'm just going to tuck in here, stupid, stupid.


0:39:56 - Danny

Okay, Another a few things that I wrote down just to reinforce some of the fact that you know, like, if you are team possession, when Miss Giddens is swears that she sees Quinn, or, at least at this point, just a man, standing up in the tower, and she goes and sees that it's Miles and she's like yo, like was there someone up there? In Miles response, he says perhaps it was me. And she says no, it was a man. And it's like, God damn it. Like is he just saying like it was me and it was a man, it's just, and then one of them.


And then when she they're talking about him growing up, his, he responds he says there's nothing I want to be, but a boy in Bly which you could almost argue is like Quinn, reflecting on the life he didn't have before his untimely, tragic death, to say like, well, if I'm going to die, I want the opportunity to come back. And since they established him as being this kind of like cold, you know, like very persuasive, like in the worst kind of way, people, he would be the kind of ghost who's like I'm going to just possess this kid, this rich kid, and I'm going to live this great life because I been established that I do not give a shit about other people.


0:41:13 - Zach

Interesting, yeah, interesting.


0:41:16 - Casey

I want to be a little rich kid. I know I'd probably be a ghost.


0:41:22 - Zach

I thought you were going to say I'd probably be a pretty good, rich kid.


0:41:26 - Casey

I would. I've seen Richie Rich.


0:41:30 - Danny

Zach would be the kind of rich kid since we've established who would throw dummies of humans off bridges into traffic. It's like I got some free time in my hands.


0:41:41 - Casey

If you guys ever seen blank check.


0:41:43 - Zach

Yeah, yeah.


0:41:45 - Casey

And those movies were good, like just kids buying a bunch of stuff. Richie Rich has like a million dollars.


0:41:53 - Danny

That seems to buy quite a bit.


0:41:56 - Casey

Well, back in what? 90, the early 90s, whenever that came out.


0:42:00 - Danny

Yeah, but even as a kid I was like, oh, you bought the house and all the things that come with it. He still hasn't cracked a hundred and he's just like literally handing out money, but uh, oh. But, zach, you had set up the game of hide and seek and I feel like that's maybe one of like the most important scenes in the movie, because that's where we get a lot of information, where Miss Giddens finds the music box in the attic, the photo of Quinn, and then even Miles like catching her and kind of like being physical with Miss Giddens and then kind of laying it off.


0:42:40 - Zach

Oh yeah, he like put her in a sleeper hold.


0:42:42 - Danny

Yeah, and then until someone walks in and he's like I was just kidding, and it's like oh, he's like Vernon, stand by me.


0:42:51 - Zach

Sleeper, hold, sleeper hold. No one gets out of the sleeper hold. And then Miss Giddens, miss Giddens, like Miles or something on your neck.


0:42:59 - Danny

Wait, this is the second time. This is the second time that we've seen that Stephen King was influenced by the innocence for one of the stories, oh yeah.


0:43:07 - Zach

That's right this is his favorite movie. But right after they find that little picture of Quinn. And then like Miss Giddens, like runs down and talks to Josie Grossi and she's like dude, like what happened, and they're like, oh, he died. And then like Miles and Flora, I think they're both there, are like on top of the stairs and they're like giggling and it's like, oh, shit.


0:43:30 - Danny

Well, that's what they do. They giggle before or after. Miss Giddens sees Quinn in the window like for like a hot second, because I think it's. I think she goes down because, oh, that's OK. So they flip it because she has.


0:43:44 - Zach

Miles puts the sleeper hold on Miss Giddens, and then Miss Giddens sees Quinn outside the window.


0:43:50 - Danny

That's right, because she was hiding behind the curtain. Ok, turns around, sees him. Yeah, screams, screams. And then she talks to Josie Grossi and I also love this about like older movies that they're so simple, where it's like I saw a man. She's like was it a handsome man? Yes, that's Peter Quint.


0:44:09 - Casey

Like, oh God, like there's no question, she doesn't see other people.


0:44:16 - Danny

That's fair, I guess who would?


0:44:18 - Casey

be out there. The only handsome man she knows is that guy.


0:44:22 - Danny

She's like oh, the one handsome man I've seen in my entire life, because I've never left this farm.


0:44:28 - Zach

Look at Miss.


0:44:29 - Danny



0:44:30 - Zach

She's so like horny. It's like I saw a man outside. She's like was he good looking?


0:44:35 - Casey

She's also fairly large dick you said dick penis, she wouldn't say penis.


0:44:44 - Zach

She would have said Does he have a fairly large appendage? Yeah, a member.


0:44:53 - Danny

What was the girth of his member?


0:44:56 - Casey

They say cock a lot in England.


0:44:59 - Danny

That's a good point, right A prick yeah.


0:45:04 - Zach

Did he have a jolly good prick?


0:45:06 - Danny

How are his fingers in the mash? A jolly good prick, but no. But that's the point where Grossi's like no, he's dead. And that's when the children start laughing.


0:45:18 - Zach



0:45:20 - Danny

And it's like that's again, it's like planting in your head of like are they laughing because they're like you'll never know that they're dead, but they're us, or is it the kid? Yeah, this whole movie just like, constantly, like contradicts your own theories because they all could technically mean the same thing.


0:45:42 - Casey

Without her ever actually experiencing any of that stuff, she's very quick to believe what's her name.


0:45:48 - Danny

Oh yeah, she's like, this is like a wonderful day for an exorcism. Like halfway through the movie Like oh, that's when Josie Grossi mentions that Miles found Quinn after he died and then specifically says that Quinn had such power he had over people.


0:46:10 - Zach

So it's like oh, do you think there was like a little bit of a Charlie Ray kind of?


0:46:16 - Casey

Oh, ok, a day of.


0:46:17 - Zach

Dewey Dembola.


0:46:21 - Casey

I was going to do it. Yeah, ok.


0:46:24 - Zach

So that adds another element to this story. Damn yeah.


0:46:29 - Danny

But then you could argue that her saying he had so much power over people because he was very, you know. They said Miles liked him, he's very influential. Is that just Miles? His whole like vibe right now is just a kind of cocktail of emotions, because he's neglected. He clearly doesn't have parents. He's neglected by his uncle, the one male figure in his life who is like supposedly like a positive male figure is not only dead, but he watched him die Right. So it's like is he just broken up about it or is? Did the guy possess him?


0:47:06 - Zach

Yeah, because Laura is all broken up about Miss Jessal too. Yeah, and like as soon as Miss Giddens mentions Miss Jessal, like later in the movie Floor, like freaks the fuck out, yep. And that's when Grossi is like I've never heard such obscenities come out of a child's mouth, so it's almost like she was possessed, because, like why would? She wouldn't say those things, she wouldn't know to say those things, unless she was possessed, exactly.


0:47:35 - Danny

Oh, interesting God, this movie, I love this movie, it is a trip. So then we meet our second monster when we see the ghost of Miss Jesswell standing in the marsh, staring out at Miss Giddens and Flora. Oh yeah that, yeah, creepy, that was creepy, like truly, truly creepy, and that is kind of what sets up. Miss Giddens is now, like you said, like she just kind of goes from zero to 60. She's convinced that this is a haunting and now she wants to figure out what they want.


0:48:08 - Casey

But she figures out. I meant Miss Gross without ever having she's like right on board with everything that she's saying, without ever having experienced any of it, she goes to and she's like hey, I've been seeing this and the children are possessed. And she says I don't think so, like one time. And then she's like you know what? You're right, right, yeah.


0:48:28 - Danny

Is that supposed to be just?


0:48:29 - Zach

what should we do? What should be the?


0:48:31 - Danny

times? Or was she just like a very simple person, or just agreeable?


0:48:37 - Casey



0:48:38 - Zach

Yeah, was like, was it like? Oh, it's my job to listen to the governor.


0:48:42 - Danny

Yeah, yeah, because they do kind of establish that where she's like I'm, I was put in charge, so it's Miss Gross, just like, I guess, whatever you say is like.


0:48:51 - Zach

Maybe, Fact, yeah, but there is like other workers in the house that like we don't talk about, yeah, we don't see. And Josie Gross, he's probably like what's this Fucking which?


0:49:03 - Danny

actually I wonder if and again, I may just be, I might be looking way too deep into this but like, was that deliberate? I mean it could have just been they just don't want to pay more actors. Was it deliberate to not see the other workers? Or was it just to kind of put us in the headspace of Miss Giddens to be like, no, that's just the guy who works over there. We just haven't met him. So you're just maybe seeing him. I don't know. Maybe.


0:49:29 - Zach

Oh, I see what you're saying. You know what I mean. Yeah, yeah.


0:49:33 - Casey

It didn't hurt.


0:49:34 - Zach

Yeah, I would. In my opinion, I would think that it would not have to do with not having to pay extra actors.


0:49:42 - Danny

Like we put all of our money into the this house.


0:49:44 - Zach

You know what I mean. It's not like. It's not like I think the filmmaking when this was made a little different than now trying to make like your own movie. Yeah.


0:49:55 - Danny

Especially if it's just like a cutaway to a guy raking leaves or something.


0:49:58 - Casey

Yeah, and just be like that's Bob, we'll pay you 10 bucks, yeah.


0:50:02 - Zach

You know what I was thinking though this is a little off track, but sort of on the same wavelength here. So trying to put myself in the headspace of like Toby Hooper and the crew of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre when they were making that movie, yeah, and like trying to separate the cultural like phenomenon of what it is that we know it to be, like leather face in the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, like before all that, they were just like making a movie. Yeah, that was not a classic, you know what I mean? They were just like going through hell to like just make a movie.


0:50:39 - Casey



0:50:40 - Zach

And that's it. Yeah, Not knowing what it was like. There's no way they could have known what it was going to become, but it's just it's wild to think that.


0:50:48 - Casey

Well, yeah, I mean they weren't like.


0:50:50 - Zach

We're making the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and it's going to be a classic one day. They're just like I don't.


0:50:56 - Casey

And I don't even think that anything will ever have that much weight again either.


0:51:05 - Danny

You know what I mean. Sure, just in regard to, like, how it was put, Just how it's revered now.


0:51:11 - Casey

There's never going to be. I mean, there are several that have come after that that are, but I think we're at a point where that's not going to happen anymore because, as good as a movie is, it's never going to be the first. You know what I mean.


0:51:23 - Danny

So just the industry has changed so much that the ability to make movies is just easier now.


0:51:29 - Casey

It's too easy yeah.


0:51:31 - Danny

So what they had to get through like you said. Zach, it was almost like the journey getting there sort of has a lot to do with maybe why it's so revered.


0:51:41 - Zach



0:51:42 - Danny

It just happens that the movie is also awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


0:51:48 - Zach

Anyways, back to Blightmaner.


0:51:50 - Danny

So, yeah, we find out that Quint was abusive. Miss Jessel loved him. She probably died of a broken heart and then. But then we find out that she drowned herself in the lake. Oh, it is like the hours.


0:52:07 - Casey

Well, I haven't seen the hours and I didn't say, I didn't mean to say the hours.


0:52:11 - Danny

That's so funny.


0:52:14 - Zach

So many spoilers.


0:52:16 - Danny

Oh, there actually is another sign that maybe there is possession being involved in this movie, because there's a scene All I wrote I don't know what the context is here I just wrote going to see the uncle, but sees Jessel's ghost and Miss Giddens starts crying. There's like a tear. So then I was wondering if she was, if maybe Miss Jessel was possessing her for a moment to kind of stop her from going, and that maybe Miss Giddens was kind of seeing the tragedy of what happened.


0:52:49 - Zach

So you're talking about when she sees her, like in the classroom, at the desk. Thank you, that's what exactly it was. So this is something I read I don't know if it was on IMDb or what, but she's in the classroom and she turns and she sees Miss Jessel sitting in the desk in front of the window so creepy, and yeah. And then the camera turns and this and that and she'll. When it comes back she's gone and Miss Jessel sits down in the desk and she feels or sees and feels like a tear drop that had fallen from Miss Jessel's eye sockets, eye holes, eye holes, eye holes From her, her, her, her face.


0:53:37 - Danny

In your eye holes.


0:53:39 - Zach

Her face, her face, her face, her face, her face, her face.


0:53:44 - Casey

That reminds me of a movie. And from what I read, the sadness, the sadness, oh God.


0:53:53 - Zach

Oh the sadness. She has a face that's so gross. She gets her fucking eye hole fucked.


0:53:59 - Casey

It's so good, it was so bad, so bad it was like so, so bad.


0:54:06 - Zach

It was like the softest it was like so, so bad.


0:54:12 - Casey

It was like the softest. Yeah because so bad, all right.


0:54:17 - Zach

Bra, that was like really gross bra. Hey, because hey bra.


0:54:22 - Casey

Danny, it does not work with you.


0:54:24 - Zach

Where did I read this about Truman Capote Wait why, I could do it.


0:54:29 - Casey

No, it's okay, it's not a bad thing, trust me. It's just very not you.


0:54:34 - Zach

Yeah, you don't want to be someone who can pull off bra. You don't want to be someone because you don't want to.


0:54:39 - Danny

Yeah, you're a well respected young man. I'm like Miles from this movie.


0:54:45 - Casey

I'm very pop up. Where did I read it? I don't know.


0:54:49 - Zach

I didn't read it, but something about Truman Capote like regrets, writing that scene with the teardrop because he wanted it to be like.


0:54:58 - Danny

Capote regret putting that scene in, because it basically took away all the ambiguity, because it kind of confirms that there is a ghost. That's not a ghost. That's what it was, I'm pretty sure it was.


0:55:08 - Zach

I think that's what it was. I'm pretty sure that's what it was.


0:55:11 - Danny

That sounds right, because in his the defense of that scene, though you could almost argue that it was Miss Giddens' tear and that she's just kind of losing it and didn't even know she was crying.


0:55:24 - Casey

I feel like there is a way around that.


0:55:28 - Zach

Sure, oh, okay. So here's what I had read, According to Gerald Clark's biography of Truman Capote. Screenwriter Capote felt that the scene where Miss Giddens touches the teardrop of Miss Jessal in the school room was a huge mistake and he regretted writing it. He believed the audience would never really know if the ghosts were real or a figment of Miss Giddens' imagination.


0:55:53 - Casey

So yeah, yeah.


0:55:55 - Zach

So basically what you said, Okay, and I would say you said it much more elegantly than IMDb Trivia Block. Are we surprised?


0:56:05 - Danny

No, well, now let's go to chat GPT and see if they can say it better than I said it.


0:56:10 - Casey

No, we don't use chat GPT.


0:56:11 - Zach



0:56:12 - Casey

No no.


0:56:13 - Zach

We don't want to get Casey Nightmares.


0:56:15 - Casey

No no.


0:56:15 - Danny

We're a pro union and we support the strike. That's right. I do love so. This is like the point in the movie where Miss Giddens is like I'm taking matters into my own hands, as if she wasn't already, and she goes to Josie Grossi and I love this because she was like the kids just need to admit that they're possessed and then she can cast them out and I was just like.


0:56:41 - Zach

She knows that I do everything.


0:56:43 - Danny

Yeah, exactly Like she's like we just have to imagine that was in the exorcist. They're like are you the devil? No, Are you the devil, Okay, yeah, it's like get out of here.


0:56:55 - Zach

It's that curvy or enthusiasm music. Oh man, Okay.


0:57:04 - Casey

So Miles hides a dead bird under his pillow Fucking weird.


0:57:08 - Zach

It's got a smell bad. Well, it's freshly dead, so I don't know if it would smell that bad. But that's when he kisses the dead bird he says, yeah, kiss me, good night, miss Giddens. And then he just like lays a fat one on her and that I think okay. So that's weird, right. But it's like I think it's a little different with him kissing her. Yeah, because it's like a little boy in this, and he's like, oh, because she should have been like. No, hey, I'm an adult, not 100%.


0:57:50 - Casey

But then, like later in the movie, when he's dead.


0:57:53 - Zach

She reciprocates right and she just like goes full on.


0:58:00 - Casey

Not only is it a little boy, but it's a dead little boy, so she's a pedophile in an echo yeah. Fucking gross. Oh, I'm sorry.


0:58:10 - Zach

Fucking gross.


0:58:14 - Danny

Oh creepy. And also from like a well regarded actor, deborah Carr. That's why I'm trying to look at it from the lens of 1961, because that would also be the fact that we're talking about it right now and it's still so disturbing. Imagine back then.


You have this like really again like well regarded actor doing these things in this horror movie. Yeah, oh Jesus. That's why I like, but that's also, I think, why I love horror movies is because they touch on topics that are probably never well, not never, but not as often maybe discussed in other genres.


0:58:55 - Casey

To kind of like show, like you should get into a true crime.


0:58:58 - Danny

I know. Well, that's the thing is. I like the fiction element because there's that like it's like oh it's a little bit of a buffer.


0:59:06 - Casey

I mean obviously true crime. Like I listen, I listen to so much true crime. It's a lot. I mean I can I get to listen to my headphones for eight hours every single day at work, you know, and all of it is like really disgusting. But like necrophilia is literally the one thing that I'm always like how, how, that's awful, how, how does that happen?


0:59:30 - Danny

And that's why this movie is so disturbing but also so kind of fascinating to discuss, because they're touching on such like taboo topics that are truly like actually vile, but they're presented in a way that is not only on the surface, like everything is like beautiful and regal and old fashioned, but also sort of what's the word I'm looking for, where, like you, it's not quite specific, it keeps vague, vague. Yeah, like it's it's. Is it this or is it that? Am I reading too into it? Or is it what's on the surface? And is what's on the surface real or supernatural, or is it a figment of someone's imagination? Like, did she even do that in the end? You know, like that's the thing I think is, and why did she do it? And was it a ghost or was she possessed by Ms Jaisal at that point, or was you know it's?


1:00:30 - Zach

just, we go back to my theory at the beginning, when the kids aren't even kids they're actually Peter Quint and Ms Jaisal, and then really she's just kissing Peter Quint.


1:00:39 - Danny

Yeah, and then, Casey, you had mentioned earlier about how well you both did, but I'm probably just clinging on to something.


1:00:46 - Zach

No, no, no, it was just Casey, I didn't say anything.


1:00:49 - Danny

No, but like to your point, zach, too, about how, like it kind of has that cold open where it kind of sets everything up and we don't get a real backstory about Ms Jaisal and so we get like a little bit of information later about growing up with the preacher father and this, like so then you, it's the story about where she is the innocent, where, like, how close off was she? Is this her first job? She seems kind of older. You know, like, who is she A mentally and emotionally and how does that feed into being isolated, put in charge? You know sort of like internal issues that maybe we just don't know about and maybe was just not discussed at that time period, yeah, so it's like all sort of like compacted into this really dramatic situation that ends up becoming tragic and we're kind of witnessing like how kind of just like how messed up that can make someone, or just it just becomes very kind of tumultuous and confusing and dark and scary. Yeah, or it's ghosts, no.


1:01:57 - Zach

Or it could be ghosts.


1:02:00 - Danny

Oh, there is a line that I really love. When Josie Grossi is, she's going to go to the uncle and she says to Miss Giddens she's like what am I to tell the uncle? She says the truth. Oh yeah, I love that there's like so many layers to that because, like, the truth isn't the truth, because no one is like believes what they see or no one's sure what's real. So it's like it's another layer.


1:02:24 - Zach

She's like she just like sighs. She's like, fine, she's like which? Which truth? Which one do you want me to tell it? Oh, you know, take one. But yeah, so that's like right after I think that's right after Flora freaks out and she's like okay, I'm taking. Miss Giddens is like Josie Grossi, you take Flora, go see the uncle. I need to deal with Miles, which is kind of weird. Again, we're getting into this thing where she's like I need to be alone with him. Yeah, in this she's like I sent, I've sent all the rest of the staff home. You're going to see the uncle, it's just me and Miles. Like what?


1:03:02 - Danny

the fuck is wrong with you. What was the intention there? Was it because she says she thinks she could stop it by getting them to admit that they're possessed Something?


1:03:11 - Zach

like that.


1:03:11 - Danny

Yeah, maybe Miss Giddens, just maybe this. Maybe I am reading too much into, maybe I'm trying to defend her too much in a way.


1:03:18 - Casey

Yeah, maybe she's just a fucking nasty bitch.


1:03:20 - Danny

Yeah, like a horrible person and like that's just basically watching it from her perspective, to say like, oh, it's not me that's wrong, it's these kids. It's you know. She's putting the blame on everyone else. It's that, it's the dead people. It's the people who are dead, who can't, you know, stand up for themselves. It's the two kids who can't defend themselves. It's me who's in charge, I have all the power.


1:03:43 - Zach

Yeah. So she, she confronts Miles when everyone's gone and she basically forces him to say Peter Quinn's name. He wouldn't say it before and she forces him to do it. And then, like so at the very end they're in like the garden and there's all these statues kind of like stacked up and she sees Peter Quinn like standing on one. Miles says the name, the ghost kind of disappears and then Miles fucking dies. So I was wondering, so did.


1:04:16 - Casey

Fucking, dies, miles, dies bro.


1:04:20 - Danny

Of shock because of just everything that's happening, or from a supernatural perspective? Did he die because Quinn left his body and that was what was kind of keeping him alive? Yeah?


1:04:34 - Zach

Do you guys remember like you guys remember like a few scenes back when they're like yelling at him? She's like they're not yelling but like she's talking to him over the dinner table and he smacks the fucking Jello? Nope. I wish I did, though you know, like when you see a bag of soil or something in like Home Depot and you have to smack it there's like Jello or something on the table and he like smacks it and it goes, no, no no, no, no, that really happened, yes.


1:05:06 - Danny

Danny, do you know what I'm talking about? Uh-huh, he has. That's the thing, is he? I think he has the best performance in the movie. Yeah yeah, for a kid to kind of understand the layers of like. Is he playing a kid who's just like precocious and shitty, or is he playing an adult? Or playing a kid playing an adult who's trying to be a kid? Oh yeah. Which is so layered and complicated and interesting. What a time he was in another horror movie where he plays a creepy kid, but it was.


1:05:43 - Zach

Dude, so I can't think of that. Okay, the whole time he gave me Mikey vibes. Oh my God, do you remember Mikey? We've talked about Mikey before With the kid from.


1:05:54 - Danny

Blank Check Blank.


1:05:55 - Zach

Check. Oh my God. Is it time.


1:06:02 - Casey

No, that doesn't make any sense For the Halloween that you're monstering, not even an ounce of it. It's not even the same actor. It's just you just reminded you of him.


1:06:11 - Zach

But here's the thing Possession. It's all about possession, right, uh-huh.


1:06:15 - Casey

We could make this to any movie. Then If you just want to say, everyone's fucking possessed Anyways okay, we'll skip it.


1:06:25 - Zach

So what's the?


1:06:26 - Danny

theory have been is oh, we're not skipping it.


1:06:29 - Casey

I guess we're not Go ahead, Danny.


1:06:32 - Zach

It is time for the Halloween that you're monster. Conspiracy theory of the week.


1:06:36 - Casey

Hit it.


1:06:38 - Danny

I'm telling you that NASA is going to kill the president of the United States. We'll be in our place. That's exactly the kind of thing a secret service is, and like just throw himself on top of the whole Vietnam war was fought over.


1:06:49 - Casey

Now we're huge lost Aristotle this year, casey, what do you got? What.


1:07:02 - Danny

No, okay, the conspiracy theory of the week is is Miles, mikey or is the kid from blank? Check what, peter, what would be?


1:07:16 - Zach

It's kind of the same idea where it's like he moves into this big house. He kisses a moment in that movie. What the fuck.


1:07:27 - Danny

God. It's literally about a kid who takes on someone else's identity and adults identity in order to procure a mansion and, while living there, pretends like makes people believe that he's a grown man, even though he's actually a kid, and then, in the end, you know, Mr McIntosh. Oh my.


1:07:49 - Zach



1:07:50 - Danny

Mr McIntosh is Mr Quinn and the detective who kisses him is Mrs Gooden.


1:07:56 - Casey

I wish I never would have brought up that movie.


1:07:58 - Danny

Oh, I'm so glad you did. That's wild All right Listeners, tune in next week when you do a special mini episode on blank check, aka the sentence part, due Part due oh man.


1:08:17 - Zach

God, that's crazy Actually there's more to chew on there. There's definitely more to chew on Like, for sure.


1:08:24 - Casey

It's still not a conspiracy theory.


1:08:26 - Danny

Let's it's a conspiracy. It's a fact. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's just it's just a parallel story.


1:08:33 - Zach

The positional theory.


1:08:37 - Danny

I refuse to live in a world where that is not no hard fact. No, but we were talking about Miles, and this is just going to drive me crazy, but he was. He's like the literal poster child of the movie Village of the Damned the kid with the blond hair. Oh yeah, so he was, he was doing some stuff.


1:09:00 - Casey

He's doing some stuff.


1:09:02 - Zach

Okay, so the blank check kid is Miles. Miles is the blank check kid, perfect. So that's pretty much the innocence. Yeah, that's it. I mean there's man a lot to unpack. But that is a good. We kind of just like got to the hotel room and like unpacked our bag and put it in the the drawers.


1:09:29 - Danny

Yeah, does that I do? Do you do that, I guess?


1:09:35 - Casey

And then you put, and then you put your dirty clothes into your suitcase so that you don't have everything all around.


1:09:42 - Zach

How smart is that?


1:09:43 - Casey

Yeah, I'm kind of organized. Not sure if you guys realize you teach us so much about organization.


1:09:49 - Danny

Yeah, you're fixing our hotel experiences extended stays. Yeah.


1:09:57 - Zach

Okay, well, do you guys want to talk about the reveals in the innocence? Yeah, sure.


1:10:04 - Danny

I do, casey is indifferent.


1:10:07 - Zach

I want to talk about it too, because I want to talk about fucking Miss Jessel in the tall grass. Oh not fucking Miss Jessel in the tall grass you don't want to fuck Miss Jessel in the tall grass I couldn't get a good look at her.


1:10:21 - Casey

She's a ghost, you weirdo.


1:10:23 - Danny

God, what is ghost sex?


1:10:26 - Casey

called Spectrophilia. That's like something else.


1:10:31 - Zach

There is a name for it. What are you Googling?


1:10:35 - Casey

What is the?


1:10:36 - Zach

question, not what I should have.


1:10:39 - Danny

Yeah, what is ghost sex called? If I fucked a ghost, what would people call?


1:10:42 - Casey

me Spectrophilia Well spectra means ghost.


1:10:50 - Zach

Yeah, it's like a fun spectrophile. Well, ok, you say that. And then I think of the goop from Ghostbusters where Venkman's like Egon, you're mucus.


1:11:01 - Casey

And you just drop. You're telling me that you're not thinking of the scene in Scary Movie 2, where Tory Spelling has sex with a ghost.


1:11:08 - Danny

I'm not. I just watched that recently. It's so ridiculous.


1:11:16 - Zach

OK, so here's our reveals for the innocence I'm on here. I don't believe it Anywhere.


1:11:30 - Casey

That's how they get you. They're under the goddamn ground.


1:11:39 - Zach

We've got a man on the tower which we find out later is May or may not be Peter Quint, the woman walking in the hallway. Did you guys notice that? No, Was that another worker, or was that you didn't see that there's a whole scene? I mean, she's like exploring the house and she turns the corner and there's a lady in a dress that just floats by and goes into the.


1:12:05 - Danny

I'm telling you, man, Do you know around what time in the movie it was?


1:12:11 - Zach

Well, it's after.


1:12:12 - Casey

We see the guy on the roof right.


1:12:14 - Zach



1:12:15 - Casey

And before or whatever the next reveal is.


1:12:17 - Danny

That's it, See, Casey. This is why you're here. She's like giving us the obvious, like, oh yeah.


1:12:25 - Zach

So the man outside the window is the next one.


1:12:29 - Casey

So it's between the man on the roof and the man in the window.


1:12:31 - Danny

So then that's, and so then that would have to be before the or during the hide and seek God. I love this movie it is. It's funny I mentioned this the last episode. I always forget how like creepy, creepy. It is like like ski the creepy, which kind of makes it hard to be like, oh, let's throw the innocence on.


1:12:50 - Casey

It's a good movie, but just like a love with middle aged women, little boys.


1:12:55 - Danny

No, just the atmosphere, and I do love the black and white and just like little details. Like Zach, you're just pointing out that You're so distracted by everything else that you don't even notice like a ghost or woman walking by okay.


1:13:10 - Zach

So the woman walking in the hallway which may be a worker or it may not be We've got the man outside the window during hide and seek, which is Peter Quinn. Woman in the tall grass miss Gessel. Miss Gessel, when she appears in the desk in the classroom, I Counted as a reveal. I counted like the whispering between miss Gessel and Quinn when miss Giddens is like walking through the house. Yeah, the whispering keeps like getting bigger and bigger and they're like she's coming, like don't this? That's like creepy. Then we've got Miss Gessel again in the pond, like in the grass when flora freaks out at the gazebo. Um, peter Quinn in the window again. He loves windows. And then quint in the garden at the end, right before Miles bites it. So those are the reveals that I have. Okay, what's your favorite? What was your?


1:14:13 - Casey

favorite, definitely a ghost. That's not on, that's not an employee.


1:14:17 - Zach

She like glides across the fucking thing. Yeah, she's so cool Anyway oh, but it's not the but it's not. But if I'm you just saw it, I closed out of it, but she's blonde, right.


1:14:29 - Casey

Yeah, she's got lighter hair lighter hair.


1:14:31 - Zach

It's not miss Gessel, who's got the dark hair. Maybe, it's clearly like a ghost.


1:14:37 - Casey

Maybe it's. Maybe it's the governess. That's there now.


1:14:41 - Zach

So, then, all are the other employees that we don't see, maybe their ghosts, oh, my god, okay.


1:14:46 - Danny

Wait, we just Josie Grossi, a ghost. Oh, she could be what if they're all dead? She's just what if the uncle killed them all, and it was like maybe he wants to frame her. So he's like I'm gonna put her in charge. Everyone's dead. She's like this simple-minded woman.


1:15:07 - Zach

He knows the place is haunted well, okay, and she gets out before the carriage even takes her to the house. Yes, oh, oh, my god.


1:15:19 - Danny

So this is like all just like a setup to frame her and it's just like he knew, like the powers that were like in that house, like super naturally. So he's like I'll just frame her, it'll fuck with her head, she won't know left from right and then boom.


1:15:35 - Casey

She's gonna kiss little boys.


1:15:37 - Danny



1:15:40 - Zach

She's lady. So what is your favorite? Reveal, danny.


1:15:46 - Danny

I Know I had mentioned. I really do love that scene when Miss Jessels at the desk. There's just something about it that is so kind of matter-of-fact about it, like oh, she's just sitting there crying Mm-hmm. I don't know, that is very unnerving to me. But I think my favorite is Miss Jessel in the marsh.


1:16:06 - Zach

Yeah, just watching them. That's for me too yeah.


1:16:10 - Casey

Um, yeah, I like that one, but going back and just watching that one in the hallway, that that one's my favorite now. Yeah, that's pretty good yeah it's creepy because it, yeah, it's the creepiest one, because it's More ghost, more like a ghost than a person, because she's like gliding, and you only see her for a second.


1:16:29 - Zach

She's not staring at anybody, or which it kind of actually going to ghost bus. Talking about ghost buses, it reminds me of when they see the ghost in the library. Yeah, yeah yeah. Just pass yeah.


1:16:42 - Casey

Yeah, yeah.


1:16:43 - Danny

Do you think the ghost was also playing? How to go see, can she's like?


1:16:57 - Zach

Said every ghost ever. Oh shit yeah bro bro Bro, all right. Well, now it is time for a segment that we like to call the real monster. Run, run, run as fast as you can.


1:17:16 - Danny

I'm the gingerbread man Monster. I'm not a monster. Here you are. You and the rest of that fairy tale crash, poisoning my perfect world. Now tell me.


1:17:27 - Casey

Where are the others? Yeah, I'm just gonna go first, gonna get this out of the way. Zack, I'm sorry. I know that you've been a stepdad for like four years now and now you have a child of your own, but the answer is children. Real monsters are children. Wow, okay, they just. I mean, god, they're so easily possessed, first of all. Second, they just scream all the time. And these kids are weird.


1:18:02 - Zach

You've held my baby and you. She was cool. I like her.


1:18:05 - Casey

I told everyone because everyone's like, oh my god, you held a baby. Cuz I'm not a huge fan of kids, I was like, ah, she's well behaved, she's cool. Yeah she's okay in my book.


1:18:19 - Danny

Danny, your real monster my real monster was the uncle, because he just kind of pieces out and I feel like he kind of symbolizes all of the neglect that's in that house. That I think probably has to do with why so much. What is all fucked up in the first place?


1:18:37 - Zach

Yeah, okay, so I guess keys were use.


1:18:39 - Danny

I'm kind of like the the opposite, where, like you said, the kids are the monsters. I would say that the people who should be the role models taking care of them are the monsters.


1:18:48 - Casey

Yeah, but sometimes it doesn't matter. Yeah and that's true like Mikey.


1:18:54 - Zach

Like speaking of my key, my real monster is miles. Yeah, for two reasons. One One is for telling Miss Giddens that she's too pretty to wear spectacles.


1:19:07 - Casey

Excuse me.


1:19:08 - Zach

Basically she's like, oh, I might need my, I might need spectacles. And he's like you're far too pretty for that.


1:19:13 - Casey

Like my glasses Are cute as hell miles.


1:19:16 - Danny

She's like hey miles, go fuck yourself.


1:19:20 - Zach

And second is also my second real monster is also miles for throwing Rupert the turtle out the fucking window.


1:19:32 - Casey

Yeah, animal abuse.


1:19:35 - Zach

He throws Rupert the turtle out the fucking window like breaks the glass and everything. It's not like the window was open. He throws it through the window pane. What a does he abuses animals, mm-hmm and the dead bird, like I'm sure he broke that fucking birds neck God man.


1:20:04 - Danny

Good IN applauds.


1:20:22 - Zach

We can finally clock out. Do you guys have anything before we punch that time card?


1:20:26 - Danny

Do you guys have anything else to add no, I'm not by, just no, not a clock, I don't fuck you, fuck you.


1:20:32 - Casey

No, I don't Fuck you. I don't do any work. You're cool, fuck you. I'm out, yeah.


1:20:40 - Zach

OK, well, listeners, if you have seen the innocence, if you have seen the Any, we want to know what you think of the innocence and Missa Giddens. Questionable actions reach out to us on Instagram, facebook, twitter, tiktok I guess it's X now, but the red threads we're there, we're everywhere. Find us. That how I met your monster. Ok, so, occupational hazards We've survived any of our shifts, we have, but now it's after work. We had a long shift, we're hungry. We're fucking hungry.


1:21:16 - Danny

Fucking starving Casey. What's the line?


1:21:20 - Casey

I'm so fucking hungry, Bill. I didn't think it was possible to be this hungry. Well, it passed me some of that possum over there.


1:21:30 - Zach

Something's wrong with me.


1:21:32 - Casey

Something's wrong with me.


1:21:37 - Zach

Yeah, we've got the hunger pains, Casey. What is our next triple feature?


1:21:41 - Casey

It's hunger pains.


1:21:43 - Zach

Oh yeah, that's convenient.


1:21:45 - Casey

Yeah, so we're going to yeah.


1:21:48 - Zach

What are we watching?


1:21:49 - Casey

Well, first we're going to watch the stuff.


1:21:53 - Zach

Larry Cohen's the stuff, and then we're going to watch the ice cream man.


1:21:58 - Casey

Clint Howard, the ice cream man, and then we're going to watch the Silence of the Lambs. Anthony Hopkins, and so we're watching two movies that are about that are about sweets, and then the third movie is about somebody who eats human flesh.


1:22:18 - Zach

So we got savory and we got sweet.


1:22:20 - Danny

Yeah, you know guys we live in a world where there is so called rules, where it says you cannot have sweets before dinner, but God damn it. On this podcast we're doing it. Yeah, we're wallbreakers, we're rebels.


1:22:34 - Casey

We're also eating human flesh, which is probably worse than having dessert before dinner, but yeah.


1:22:40 - Zach

Yeah, OK, so make sure to join us if you're hungry.


1:22:45 - Danny

Doesn't he say that in too fast to furious, when he keeps saying it's like a repeated line or he's like I'm hungry?


1:22:51 - Zach

Oh, tyrese is all about like we're hungry, like we're from our pockets are empty or hungry, and then at the end they like steal money from like the stuff they give back to the police and they're like our pockets aren't empty anymore because it's like so stupid. You loved it. I didn't love it, but I was invested, I am invested, I have to keep going. I love it, so make sure to follow along on social media so you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes. And where can our listeners find you to on social media?


1:23:22 - Casey

I am on Instagram at Wolf Mother Casey Awesome.


1:23:26 - Danny

I am on Instagram Letterbox and threads, Kind of still on Twitter, but I don't really use it anymore. It's just got weird over there at Danny's limb. That's just my name, D A N N Y S A L E M M E. That's two M's. Like the candy melt in your butt, not in your hands.


1:23:44 - Casey

I didn't know that, no wonderful, wonderful.


1:23:47 - Zach

And you can find me on social media at Zach, when sick. And until next time, be safe. Don't take any jobs where you're not sure of what.


1:23:58 - Casey

Do the proper vetting your responsibility.


1:24:01 - Danny

Yeah, the money is not always worth it.


1:24:04 - Zach

That's right, and thank you all for listening. Now go meet some monsters.


1:24:09 - Casey

Bye, sh Sh Sh it's. We already punched out, danny.


1:24:14 - Danny

Oh, I'd caught. Yeah, get to work.


1:24:18 - Casey

Oh no.


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